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goosegetter
08-26-2003, 01:33 PM
Been doing some research on breaders for chocolate labs and all and I have noticed that a lot of them certfy the hips, eyes and elbows.

This might be a real stupid question, but why do you certify the elbows?:ST:

chcltlabz
08-26-2003, 02:41 PM
Elbows can have displasia just like hips, but it is less likely in Labradors than other breeds. The certifications are a "good guess" at the genetics for certain traits (in this case, hips eyes and elbows). I say best guess, because just because a dog has excellent certified hips, doesn't mean that his offspring won't have displasia. They are certifying the health of the hips, eyes, etc., which is a good indication of the genetic pattern of the dog.

Remember, get guarantees, not just certifications.

The certifications are a rating, for example displastic, fair, good, excellent. I could rightfully say in an ad that I have cerf'd hips, when they are rated displastic, or fair. Personally, I don't think either of these ratings should be bred, but they are cerf'd.

Eye exams are usually either clear or not, and clear is what you're looking for.

AND I MUST SAY, GOOD CHOICE ON THE CHOCOLATE LAB!!!

Call'em N
08-27-2003, 12:17 AM
Let me add to chcltlabz post. It is important to remember that a dog can not be truely Certified on eyes, hips and elbows until 24 months of age. So don't buy from a breeder that will only garantee his pups less than 2 years of age. My pup came with a 26 month garantee.

Woods and Water
08-27-2003, 07:06 AM
JUst a little more food for thought you should always ask to see the OFA certs form the 3 lines before the parents breeding(to see if they all have good hips,eye and elbows).I would strongly agree that a gauarantee is helpful but most times they want your dog back if they do end up with issues(this can be tough)my buddy just had this happen.He ended up keeping the dog becouse they got so attached.....he was OFA'd poor at 25 months.Good Luck!!!

Yellardawg
08-27-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by chcltlabz
I could rightfully say in an ad that I have cerf'd hips, when they are rated displastic, or fair. Personally, I don't think either of these ratings should be bred, but they are cerf'd.



OK, let me clear up a few things, first the term "CERF'd" refers to eyes only. It is not short for certified it is short for Canine Eye Registry Foundation or C.E.R.F. So hips can't be CERF'd

second, If a dog gets a dysplastic rating by OFA, they are not given a certification #. Fair, Good and Excellent are the only levels that receive a #. Fair is passing, Mildly Dysplastic is not.






Originally posted by Call'em N
It is important to remember that a dog can not be truely Certified on eyes, hips and elbows until 24 months of age.


This is not exactly true.
Eyes can be CERF'd at 6 weeks of age on up and get a certification. Eyes should be done annually or prior to each breeding if not annually.

OFA requires that the dog be 24 months old to receive permanent Certification on Hips and elbows, but can have pre liminary certification prior to that.

PENN Hip will give hip certification any time after the dog is 6 months old (if I am not mistaken)



YD

Yellardawg
08-27-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Woods and Water
JUst a little more food for thought you should always ask to see the OFA certs form the 3 lines before the parents breeding(to see if they all have good hips,eye and elbows).I would strongly agree that a gauarantee is helpful but most times they want your dog back if they do end up with issues(this can be tough)my buddy just had this happen.He ended up keeping the dog becouse they got so attached.....he was OFA'd poor at 25 months.Good Luck!!!


This is true, SOme do require return of the dog, others require return of papers and some require the dog to be spayed or neutered. Some refund full price, some return partial purchase price and some will give a replacement pup.

As for the dog being OFA poor, "Poor" is not a rating, so I am curious if they actually sent them in to OFA or if the Vet determined that they shouldn't waste their money by sending them in because they were "Poor"

YD

Woods and Water
08-27-2003, 06:08 PM
Yellerdawg they couldnt recieve a actual (certification) becouse it was less than fair the term they told me was "Poor".This dog had parents that both had OFA certs one was Good the other Excellent....but they had no other OFA certs to offer them.That why I say its good to look further down the line to see if it is exceptable.
This particualr breeder had in his contract that the dog would be returned(if unsatisfied) and a new puppy of choice or cash would be refunded....
The dog hasnt shown signs of pain or limited mobility(they were going to breed him)but was xrayed to get OFA certification,hes since been fixed and hunts as much as they can.

Yellardawg
08-27-2003, 08:23 PM
A good vet can not make a bad hip look good on Xray, but a bad Vet can make a good hip look bad. Whenever someone gets a less than desireable OFA, I recommend they get a second opinion. It is important to use a Vet that has experience with the proper positioning.

Also, a Dr. @ AUCVM (the Orthopedic dude, name withheld) told me once that 50% of bad hips is genetic, 25% is environmental and 25% is nutritional. So even with the best genetics (good genotype), we can influence the outcome of the hips (phenotype) for example, by letting them jump in and out of the truck at young ages and feeding a food that isn't balanced for Large breed puppies (many other things as well). I once read a research paper that said that they had fed a large group of pups a quality food and kept them in metabolic cages 24/7 for the first 2 years of their life. At 2 yo, none of the pups were dysplastic...but all were socially insane and could not be trained.

Health clearances are a crap shoot, we just do all we can to edge the odds in our favor.

Yellardawg
08-30-2003, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by Woods and Water
....That why I say its good to look further down the line to see if it is exceptable.


I thought I'd comment on this...It is a very good idea to look at the lines and see if the OFA ratings are acceptable. OFA re did their website not too long ago http://www.offa.org and it is now very easy to do this using the dog's name, Registration # or OFA #. It is very user friendly and can really be a help, it even links sire, dams and siblings for you to surf to.


YD

Woods and Water
08-30-2003, 10:31 AM
Thanks for the link YD......I think that a lil research almost always pays off,better that than get a unhealthy dog.

Yellardawg
08-31-2003, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by chcltlabz
I could rightfully say in an ad that I have cerf'd hips, when they are rated displastic, or fair. Personally, I don't think either of these ratings should be bred, but they are cerf'd.




I wanted to bring this up for discussion.

Alot of people agree with you that a dog with Fair hips should not be bred, so I am not bashing at all, rather discussing.

Fair is passing and is evaluated not to be dysplastic...fair is the "C" grade of hips (if you got a "C" in high school should you be allowed to breed ;) ) Fair says that the dog should never have hip problems.

The difference between fair and good could easily be positioning of the radiographs, it could be that the dog was allowed to jump in and out of the truck, it could be that a bitch has just come out of estrus and hormones have made her joints loose (OFA recommends waiting 6 weeks after a heat cycle to OFA because of this).

Also, it is my understanding that hips are subjectively compared to other dogs of *about* the same age and that an older dog with an early "Fair" rating can get a "Good" rating when they are older simply because they have had no arthritic changes. There have been several FC-AFC dogs that rated "fair" and were bred, there is one NFC in particular that was rated "Fair" when he won the National, was bred for a couple of years and then re evaluated and received a "Good"

Of all the "Devils" that breeders chose to dance with or not to dance with, a "Fair" hip rating is not one I'd worry about if the dog brought alot to the breeding, instead, I'd worry about retinal dysplasia, muscular myopathy and a host of others, I wouldn't be concerned about a dog that passed it's OFA evaluation. With that being said, I would not suggest breeding a fair to a fair because there could be a genetic component the "Fair" rating in one or both of the cases.


YD